Сaucasus Тimes: - Mikhail Yuryevich, several years ago you wrote that “failure of Jihad in mountainous Dagestan showed that at present population of Dagestan as a whole did not support radical Islamic fundamentalism”. At the moment being did situation change or remained the same?

Mikhail Roshchin: I think that quite important changes happened in Dagestan and in the whole North Caucasus after August-September 1999. At that time radical Islam was seriously defeated and became underground movement. However, several years later Islam got much stronger and influential.

CT: - What are the reasons for a new strength and popularity of Islam?

MR: Many factors have to do with this phenomenon. One of the most important factors to be mentioned is continuing war in Chechnya and its spillover to other North Caucasus republics. In Dagestan, as I think, this was the result of serious large-scale repressions against radical Muslims or Vakhkhabists as they are called there. From the other side, although those forces became underground movement, many people, especially Muslim youth, remained supporters of the same values. Situation is seriously complicated by the refusal of the official Muslim circles and Dagestani official authorities to start open dialogue with the radicals.

One should understand that there are extremists, who are ready to resort to weapons to defend their beliefs and there are young people who would like just to have possibility to discuss openly the problems of modern Islam and differences between traditional Sufism Islam and a wide spread doctrine called vakhkhabism. Adherents of this doctrine call themselves salafits, that is, those who want to return to the ideals of early Islam.

CT: - According to a point of view expressed by a well-known expert in Ethnology Sergei Arutyunov, new version of Islam is a superficial phenomenon; Islam did not have any deep roots in the North Caucasus societies, which continue to abide by the norms of Adat and by a symbiosis of the pagan and Muslim norms.

MR: Correlation between the followers of Sufism and fundamentalists is indeed very different in different republics of the region. Overall picture is getting increasingly more complicated not only in Dagestan, but also in other regions of the North Caucasus.

To what extent and how seriously Muslim traditions and values are being perceived and Muslim rituals are being followed are extremely important criteria. Obviously, percentage of Islam believers who follow Muslim rituals is substantially higher in Dagestan, Chechnya, Ingushetia and relatively low in other Muslim republics of the North Caucasus such as Kabardino-Balkaria, Karachaevo-Cherkessia and Adygea.

In Dagestan, Sufi or Tarikat version of Islam is very powerful and deep-rooted. But at the same time, new version of Islam, in fact, fundamentalist or salafit movement emerged also in Dagestan, which in fact initiated spread of this ideology throughout the region. All famous representatives of vakhkhabism were from Dagestan.

Using its solid base and traditions, traditional Islam managed to defeat followers of Jihad in August-September 1999. Of course, supporters of Jihad expected that their armed actions would be supported in Dagestan by considerable part of the local population. In the meantime, current processes indicate that both authorities and official Muslim clergy underestimated the potential of radical Muslims, who managed to strengthen their positions in the last years. Without doubt, fundamentalism is certainly attractive for the Muslim youth.

CT: - You wrote that “today Muslim radicalism turned into revolutionary and insurgent ideology, which to certain extent has replaced Marxism”. Based on that, is it possible to make a conclusion that radical Islam is using legacy of Soviet thinking with its ideals of social justice and redistribution in those areas where traditions of Islam are weak?

MR: This is certainly a direction to go since there is no doubt that vakhkhabism, salafism or political Islam, as it is called in the West, is characterized by a great deal of egalitarianism, which makes it very close to Communist and other leftist ideologies.

In my opinion, such tendencies can prevail in those regions where Sufism did not have deep roots and any stable intellectual traditions, for instance, in Kabardino-Balkaria where even weak traditions have been erased during Soviet time. Therefore, process of religious revival and propagandists of vakhkhabism did not meet here any serious resistance unlike Dagestan, Chechnya and Ingushetia.

CT: - At present, underground fundamentalist armed groups fighting against Russia are functioning in different North Caucasus republics. Is it a serious danger?

MR: My understanding is that this danger is quite serious. The most important question is whether this danger will be overcome or it will be further developing. There is no doubt that there established a structure of fundamentalist organizations in the North Caucasus with a clear tendency for further expansion. We can see how different republics are getting increasingly involved in this process.

If we put aside quite obvious local reasons for that phenomenon, in a wider context activization of radical forces stems from the fact that Muslim world is implementing its own program of globalization or anti-globalization. Other countries such as Indonesia or Malaysia testify to this process.

Key question to be answered is whether it is at all possible to overcome that? Experience of Algeria indicates that this is quite possible, but price is very high. Fundamentalist tendencies in Algeria were neutralized due to bloody civil war during 1990-ties. Muslim counter globalization involves new countries and regions. In some of them, crisis has already been overcome; in other countries it is still to come. Obviously, North Caucasus, which reached this zone later, is now at the very top of the process.

CT: - Are there any ways to oppose the spread of radical ideology?

MR: As a researcher, I am looking at those processes rather from the outside. But, without doubt, we can use experience of other countries, which faced similar problems. As an example, I can mention Egypt, where fundamentalist forces used to be very active and aggressive. Due to organization of a discourse and wide public discussion on the religious issues direct conflict had been avoided. At present, radical organization “Brothers Muslims” changed its position. This organization has its representatives in Egyptian parliament and is almost fully integrated into Egyptian society. The question is how to organize discussion inside Muslim community. If such a discussion were possible in an open form, it would help to avoid various excesses and armed clashes.